Bill Meltzer: Flyers Gameday: 12/12/23 @ NSH

Bill Meltzer: Flyers Gameday: 12/12/23 @ NSH
- bmeltzer

Thanks Bill!

This team is together. Say want you want.

I believe it was hart’s quote postgame. “Nobody wants us to win”.

Nobody outside of Philly cares enough about what they do. He’s talking about management and the fanbase.

I have no doubt torts helps drill that message into them.

This team is together. Say want you want.

I believe it was hart’s quote postgame. “Nobody wants us to win”.

Nobody outside of Philly cares enough about what they do. He’s talking about management and the fanbase.

I have no doubt torts helps drill that message into them.
- Just5

I would not lump management into what Hart said. Jones on down have been very consistent in their messaging, i.e. "we are rebuilding but also trying to win every game; we are not tanking". I think Hart is referring to a portion of the fanbase on social media. Jason Myrtetus has been talking about this a lot also, those like MJL that state the Flyers are winning too much and not really trying to rebuild, or that Torts is a bad coach because he is trying to win. It's really just a sad portion of the fanbase that just can't enjoy watching a fun team that is easy to root for. We have a hockey season again, and I am enjoying every minute of it!

I would not lump management into what Hart said. Jones on down have been very consistent in their messaging, i.e. "we are rebuilding but also trying to win every game; we are not tanking". I think Hart is referring to a portion of the fanbase on social media. Jason Myrtetus has been talking about this a lot also, those like MJL that state the Flyers are winning too much and not really trying to rebuild, or that Torts is a bad coach because he is trying to win. It's really just a sad portion of the fanbase that just can't enjoy watching a fun team that is easy to root for. We have a hockey season again, and I am enjoying every minute of it!
- jd250

Again, you lack accuracy. I have never stated that they are winning too much. Also have never stated that Tortorella is a bad coach because he is trying to win. I have never criticized Tortorella for trying to win. I have criticized him for how he is trying to win.

Came across an interesting stat this morning. Since the Flyers lost that dreadful game to San Jose they are 10-3-1. That is good for 21 points which is the most in the league from that point thru December 10th. When I saw their schedule going forward the morning after that loss (tough schedule) I had them pegged for last place in the eastern conference by Thanksgiving. Nope!

I would not lump management into what Hart said. Jones on down have been very consistent in their messaging, i.e. "we are rebuilding but also trying to win every game; we are not tanking". I think Hart is referring to a portion of the fanbase on social media. Jason Myrtetus has been talking about this a lot also, those like MJL that state the Flyers are winning too much and not really trying to rebuild, or that Torts is a bad coach because he is trying to win. It's really just a sad portion of the fanbase that just can't enjoy watching a fun team that is easy to root for. We have a hockey season again, and I am enjoying every minute of it!
- jd250

I think fans want to win. The problem we have with it is we know the Flyers M-O. They just can't accept rebuilding and would much rather wallow in mediocrity. We know in our hearts of hearts that continued winning will result in the extensions of Walker and Seeler (and, for me, even TK). And that is just not good....

I think fans want to win. The problem we have with it is we know the Flyers M-O. They just can't accept rebuilding and would much rather wallow in mediocrity. We know in our hearts of hearts that continued winning will result in the extensions of Walker and Seeler (and, for me, even TK). And that is just not good....
- mr4tno

I don’t think Jones or DB want to be middle of the road. It’s only been 6 months. I’ll judge them at this time next year. TDL, draft , then 30 games in.

I think fans want to win. The problem we have with it is we know the Flyers M-O. They just can't accept rebuilding and would much rather wallow in mediocrity. We know in our hearts of hearts that continued winning will result in the extensions of Walker and Seeler (and, for me, even TK). And that is just not good....
- mr4tno

Yep, the issue is not winning games. The issue is how the team might react to the winning and how it affects the future of the team.

I think fans want to win. The problem we have with it is we know the Flyers M-O. They just can't accept rebuilding and would much rather wallow in mediocrity. We know in our hearts of hearts that continued winning will result in the extensions of Walker and Seeler (and, for me, even TK). And that is just not good....
- mr4tno

This is all conjecture on your part and everyone else's on here. You are just assuming that it will be the same ole same ole. There is no proof of that happening as of yet. Folks are jumping to conclusions that simply haven't happened yet. We know nothing yet in reality! Thanks!

This is all conjecture on your part and everyone else's on here. You are just assuming that it will be the same ole same ole. There is no proof of that happening as of yet. Folks are jumping to conclusions that simply haven't happened yet. We know nothing yet in reality! Thanks!
- Phillywhiteout

What are those conclusions based on? What has been the reality of this franchise and how they operate?

What are those conclusions based on? What has been the reality of this franchise and how they operate?
- MJL

I know what they are based on. They are based on the past and the future hasn't happened yet. This is a new regime and they are saying the right things so far. It seems to me that they aren't letting the current success blind them from the big picture. Of course, it's only words and we shall see what their actions are in the coming months.

I know what they are based on. They are based on the past and the future hasn't happened yet. This is a new regime and they are saying the right things so far. It seems to me that they aren't letting the current success blind them from the big picture. Of course, it's only words and we shall see what their actions are in the coming months.
- Phillywhiteout

They are? Recent statements that they owe it to the players on this team to try and win is the right thing?

I would not lump management into what Hart said. Jones on down have been very consistent in their messaging, i.e. "we are rebuilding but also trying to win every game; we are not tanking". I think Hart is referring to a portion of the fanbase on social media. Jason Myrtetus has been talking about this a lot also, those like MJL that state the Flyers are winning too much and not really trying to rebuild, or that Torts is a bad coach because he is trying to win. It's really just a sad portion of the fanbase that just can't enjoy watching a fun team that is easy to root for. We have a hockey season again, and I am enjoying every minute of it!
- jd250

Torts is a bad coach due to his ancient ways, resisting new ideas and technology to help the progress of the team, literally being a bully to his players, picking fights with skilled players ( he has done this everywhere he has coached). He is not a bad coach for trying to win.
He says one thing and does something else. He allows some players leeway on the ice, and others have a choke collar.
He is a bad coach for sitting skilled, talented players for thugs like ND to play when they don't have a place in todays game, and he has even stated that that type of player is getting pushed out of the game, yet he still plays that type of player.

He says he is trying to win, because the team deserves it, and then doesn't ice the team that gives him the best chance to do just that. That is not good coaching.
A good coach puts his players in the best position to succeed, grow and be the best they can be. Not hurt their growth, kill their confidence, and just flat out screw with them.
That is why he is a bad coach. Not because he tries to win.

Again, you lack accuracy. I have never stated that they are winning too much. Also have never stated that Tortorella is a bad coach because he is trying to win. I have never criticized Tortorella for trying to win. I have criticized him for how he is trying to win.
- MJL

Exactly...100% agree.

Torts is a bad coach due to his ancient ways, resisting new ideas and technology to help the progress of the team, literally being a bully to his players, picking fights with skilled players ( he has done this everywhere he has coached). He is not a bad coach for trying to win.
He says one thing and does something else. He allows some players leeway on the ice, and others have a choke collar.
He is a bad coach for sitting skilled, talented players for thugs like ND to play when they don't have a place in todays game, and he has even stated that that type of player is getting pushed out of the game, yet he still plays that type of player.

He says he is trying to win, because the team deserves it, and then doesn't ice the team that gives him the best chance to do just that. That is not good coaching.
A good coach puts his players in the best position to succeed, grow and be the best they can be. Not hurt their growth, kill their confidence, and just flat out screw with them.
That is why he is a bad coach. Not because he tries to win.
- TheFreak

Then why is this team playing so well and the players seem to be happy? Like, where is this coming from? He has adjusted this year and is letting the defenders join the play at their discretion. They seem more aggressive all over the ice and are leading the league in shorthanded goals. People living in the past again?

There seems to be good amount of fans that are unhappy with the fact that the Flyers are winning. They want the Flyers to lose so they get a better draft pick.

There are also fans that want the team management to trade away as players so the team can tank.

I do not believe that team management thought that the team would be this good. I am sure they will do their due diligence and if a good deal comes along they will make a trade.

I also believe because of the unexpected winning, management will adjust their rebuild strategy. I do not think they will become buyers unless they get good assets in the deal.

Then why is this team playing so well and the players seem to be happy? Like, where is this coming from? He has adjusted this year and is letting the defenders join the play at their discretion. They seem more aggressive all over the ice and are leading the league in shorthanded goals. People living in the past again?
- Phillywhiteout

I took the Flyers at their word for most of my life. The last ten years have lost the Flyers that benefit.

I am in "I will believe when I see it" mode with this team. I am truly glad they are watchable again. I am also glad they are winning. However, I do not believe them when they say they are rebuilding.

I 100% think they will add at the TDL if they have a chance at the playoffs. Or they will not move on from players like Walker and Seeler to keep a playoff push intact. Hopefully I am wrong.

There seems to be good amount of fans that are unhappy with the fact that the Flyers are winning. They want the Flyers to lose so they get a better draft pick.

There are also fans that want the team management to trade away as players so the team can tank.

I do not believe that team management thought that the team would be this good. I am sure they will do their due diligence and if a good deal comes along they will make a trade.

I also believe because of the unexpected winning, management will adjust their rebuild strategy. I do not think they will become buyers unless they get good assets in the deal.
- WhiskeyMan

I’ll just say that I want the flyers to win and FLD to lose every game…

I also do not want the flyers being buyers at the TDL and if they are out of the POs (not mathematical but not in at that time) they should sell. Sell big. If they are in mathematically, they sell if they are blown away by offers.

Hilarious that these teams that have gone through a real rebuild in Detroit, Ottawa, and Buffalo are somehow worse than us. Not exactly the same going forward, but man do those organizations stink.

I’ll just say that I want the flyers to win and FLD to lose every game…

I also do not want the flyers being buyers at the TDL and if they are out of the POs (not mathematical but not in at that time) they should sell. Sell big. If they are in mathematically, they sell if they are blown away by offers.
- coffee junkie

Nothing wrong with winning, but we should still be sellers at the deadline.

I think fans want to win. The problem we have with it is we know the Flyers M-O. They just can't accept rebuilding and would much rather wallow in mediocrity. We know in our hearts of hearts that continued winning will result in the extensions of Walker and Seeler (and, for me, even TK). And that is just not good....
- mr4tno

This is basically getting upset at something that hasn’t happened yet. Get upset when they’ve extended Walker and TK, not before.

Hilarious that these teams that have gone through a real rebuild in Detroit, Ottawa, and Buffalo are somehow worse than us. Not exactly the same going forward, but man do those organizations stink.
- ClaudeFather

Has Detroit gone through a rebuilding. They sure were hanging on to that stupid playoff streak for as long as they could with very little in the pipeline.

This is basically getting upset at something that hasn’t happened yet. Get upset when they’ve extended Walker and TK, not before.
- roenick97

When they have been doing that exact thing for 30 years now I have the right to doubt them.

Then why is this team playing so well and the players seem to be happy? Like, where is this coming from? He has adjusted this year and is letting the defenders join the play at their discretion. They seem more aggressive all over the ice and are leading the league in shorthanded goals. People living in the past again?
- Phillywhiteout

All of that is absolutely true. The question though is does this put them on the path to legitimately competing for the Stanley Cup? I try to avoid saying to win the Stanley Cup because to me, that is an unfair benchmark. It is incredibly difficult to win and no coach should have the standard of winning the cup placed on him as a benchmark for approval.
You say living in the past again. Those who forget about the past, are condemned to repeat it. There are two aspects here in my opinion. One, how has this franchise traditionally operated and Tortorella's track record as a coach.
If this team is in a playoff spot come the trade deadline. What are they going to do? Are they going to be committed to the rebuild or are they going to focus on winning because they owe it to the players? What is Tortorella, who is really running this team, going to want to do. If a team offers a first rounder for Walker, are they going to move him or keep him for the playoff drive? If a team offers a 3rd for Seeler? Is not being a buyer a true commitment to the rebuild or is being a seller a true commitment?
As far as Tortorella is concerned. This is what he does as a coach. He takes a team, gets them playing a cohesive tight checking team game with a good forecheck. Makes them a competitive team that if they have enough talent, can compete for a playoff spot or maybe more. Depending on the level of talent. He's doing that with the Flyers. However, when his time with a team is inevitably over. Which is the case for every coach. Has he set that team up with a legit path to with some more growth, true cup contention? I'd say no, he doesn't. Both the Rangers and Columbus had to go back into a rebuild again. As outlined by previous posters and myself. Tortorella is not the right coach for player development. Nor is his style of play the right style that it takes to truly win in today's game.
The Flyers won the game but did you watch how Colorado played the other night? It's not just about the elite skill they have but the style of play. Their breakouts and regroups. Their zone entries and offensive movements. That's how you have to play, backed up by solid team defense. Tortorella's style of play can only take you so far. It has limits. On a number of levels.
I've made statement that the Flyers current winning is a mirage. Not that the wins are not legitimate but how it relates to the future path of the team. I'll say it again. The biggest issue facing the Flyers is a lack of elite talent. Their current success does not remove, in my opinion, for a number of reasons. That Tortorella is not the right guy. Even more so with the unusual level of power that he possesses in the organization for a head coach.